Overview
In the podcast interview featuring Katie Allen, a specialist inclusion coach and advocate, the discussion begins with a light-hearted opening about different methods of hanging socks, which serves as an illustrative metaphor for varying perspectives on inclusion. Katie shares her transformative journey into the realm of inclusion, emphasizing that understanding diverse experiences is essential and that binary thinking can be limiting. She advocates for practical approaches that encourage open conversations about sensitive topics like racism and sexism, stressing the importance of personal accountability and vulnerability in leadership. Through sharing her own experiences as a pan-romantic asexual, she highlights the often-overlooked aspects of sexual orientation in inclusion efforts. The conversation concludes with actionable steps for fostering inclusive environments, such as seeking feedback from teams, incorporating inclusive practices like closed captions, and reframing language to enhance engagement and cooperation. Overall, the interview serves as a thought-provoking exploration of strategies to create more inclusive spaces that benefit everyone.

🎙️ Introduction and Light-Hearted Opening (00:09 – 06:30)
Katie Allen introduced as specialist inclusion coach, consultant, TEDx speaker, and allyship advocate
Innocuous opening question about how they hang socks on washing lines reveals different approaches
Katie uses an ‘octopus’ hanger with individual pegs for socks, hanging them in pairs
Phil hangs socks from one side at the ‘ankle end’ to help them dry quicker
Discussion creates a moment of connection through similarities and differences, paralleling inclusion concepts

💡 Core Concepts of Inclusion (06:31 – 20:02)
Katie explains her journey into inclusion work began at age 36 when she truly understood what it means to be white
Listening to Professor Kehinde Andrews explain racialization was eye-opening for Katie
Key lesson: Multiple truths can exist at the same time – different experiences can all be valid
Binary thinking is unhelpful – the world isn’t simply good/bad or right/wrong
There’s ‘no definition of done’ in inclusion work – it’s an ongoing learning process
Intention does not equal impact – good intentions don’t change negative impacts

🧠 Practical Inclusion Approaches (20:03 – 35:00)
Katie shifted from strategic corporate work to focusing on human conversations about inclusion
Many leadership teams struggle to discuss topics like racism, sexism, and homophobia
Leaders fear offending others or facing public criticism if they say something wrong
Katie emphasizes personal accountability and normalizing vulnerability in learning journeys
Recommends starting with ‘I’ statements and exploring your own knowledge gaps
Leaders should model learning publicly to create psychological safety for others

👂 Understanding Different Experiences (35:01 – 50:54)
Phil shares experience working with deaf people and learning about deaf culture
Katie highlights that ‘there’s no such thing as normal’ – only what we’ve normalized
Creating inclusive environments benefits everyone, not just those with specific needs
Non-inclusive environments create emotional and energy costs for excluded people
Example: Making application processes flexible helps many people, not just specific groups
Discussion of ‘I don’t see color’ statements and why they can be problematic
🌈 Sexual Orientation and Asexuality (50:55 – 01:05:29)
Katie explains her identity as asexual – experiencing no sexual attraction
Discovered her asexuality later in life after living most of her life thinking she was straight
Explains asexuality spectrum and difference between sexual and romantic attraction
Identifies as pan-romantic asexual – experiences romantic but not sexual attraction
Shares workplace challenges: asexuality often overlooked in inclusion efforts
People make hurtful comments like ‘you’re too attractive to be asexual’
Feels seen when people use LGBTQIA+ rather than stopping at LGBT

🔍 Practical Steps for Inclusion (01:05:30 – 01:19:49)
Start with self-education and immerse yourself in content outside your comfort zone
Ask people in your team what would make them feel more included
Example: Adding closed captions to meetings helps everyone, not just those with hearing issues
Reframe inclusion as something you’re already doing, not an additional task
Every touch point with humans (employees, customers, suppliers) involves inclusion work
Linguistic tip: Ask ‘is there something else?’ rather than ‘anything else?’ to encourage more sharing
Using ‘would you be willing’ instead of ‘can you’ is more effective for gaining cooperation

Here is Katie’s LinkedIn Bio https://www.linkedin.com/in/katieallenconsulting/

And her website https://www.katieallenconsulting.com/